allure, but we know that they have been driving for decades to hit the perfect levels of each of these three ingredients, to the point where if they get it right, they know that they'll send us over the moon, the products fly off the shelves, we'll buy more, we'll eat more. they'll make more money. >> you ever find the smoking gun in there, the document that says something along the lines of, we're moving towards making this more addictive? >> there actually is no single smoking gun, it's all over the place. because you have to understand, and this is important, these are companies, and they're made to make money. and they're also under huge pressure from wall street. so some of my favorite chapters in the book are about companies who have actually tried to do the right thing by consumer health, improving the health profile of their products, and they get hammered -- >> how did that work? >> well, if they did it unilaterally -- well, because if they try to do it unilaterally, wall street steps up, and says, hey, guys, what about these profit margins here?